French education and foreign languages

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French education and foreign languages

Messagepar LeDévéo » 04 juin 2016, 13:44

Waddup fam! (I'm trying too hard to sound californian :? ).
I was just wondering what you guys think of the way France teaches us english (or other languages).
It's a question that I often ask to myself, and I just can't seem to not be negative about it.
To be honest, I feel like we could do much better. We're taught english since elementary school, and yet look at how we speak or write it... We should all be bilinguals by now :mrgreen:

I personnally think it's because of the lack of practice. We rarely have a conversation in english (apart from the Colles, which I reckon are really helping), and I feel like we can't really participate enough during classes because we're so many.
Thoughts?
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Kennedjiro » 04 juin 2016, 23:27

To me, the way English is teached, be it in elementary school, middle school or high school, is far from anything serious, because they expect so little of us... The first step would be to make it more interesting for children, from the beginning. It should be considered as more than a traditional field : once you master the few basics, reading and watching videos in english on your own is waaay more efficient than spending a few hours with a teacher who doesn't really know what he is supposed to teach you. Then, the teacher's role would be to guide the pupils in their exploration of the language, rather than directly serving them packages of knowledge which will only be taken as boring, pointless lessons. :roll:
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar thuiop » 05 juin 2016, 13:50

I totally agree with Kennedjiro, especially about elemntary school, where kids learn basically nothing about English. It's quite sad to see some of the pupils being unable to read a text in English at the end of high school, in spite of having studied it during (at least) seven years. And I'm not talking about Spanish or German. The real problem about these two languages is that some people get to study it sooner than other and/or have relatives who speak these languages, and it creates a real contrast in the class, because they get to participate much more than the others, thus bringing the other students down.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Csdo » 06 juin 2016, 07:36

In my high school, students were separated in different classes for languages classes after some tests (groups changed every 3 months). Then, everyone was in a quite homogeneous group and could participate. There was 4 groups for 2 classes of T°S so we must be around 16 in every group :D
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 06 juin 2016, 11:50

thuiop a écrit :I totally agree with Kennedjiro, especially about elemntary school, where kids learn basically nothing about English. It's quite sad to see some of the pupils being unable to read a text in English at the end of high school, in spite of having studied it during (at least) seven years. And I'm not talking about Spanish or German. The real problem about these two languages is that some people get to study it sooner than other and/or have relatives who speak these languages, and it creates a real contrast in the class, because they get to participate much more than the others, thus bringing the other students down.


Well, don't forget that when graduating from elementary school, most French pupils don't even speak and write their own langage properly.

The only way to teach english effectively is with a stick and thoroughly planned vocab and grammar tests, as we do in prepa. It is dull, it is boring, and the modern child will never do the effort because we grown accustomed to be lazy self-indulgent whiny weaktards, but whatever, it works. The only other way would be to bath regularly in English culture, as the Dutch or Germans do. You know, not translating movies, not being afraid of importing words instead of "frenchizing" them. English is not a latin language, we have litteraly no predispositions for it, whereas Spanish is etymologically speaking close to us. The better English speakers in France are clearly teenagers who binge-watch movies and series and so on... An endeavour that none seem ready to make their younger children undergo because it would be "too difficult". You just gotta pray that your child will eventually grow fond of such media, or hope that it will pursue high demanding studies, such as prepa.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Almar » 06 juin 2016, 12:12

Da Rouf a écrit :Well, don't forget that when graduating from elementary school, most French pupils don't even speak and write their own langage properly.

I laughed :mrgreen:

I think there are many interesting things that has already been pointed out, but I'd like to add a fact : nowadays, most studients (from elementary school to highschool) see english as a pointless subject. They don't realize the amount of possibilities given when speaking english. I believe It's like accessing a whole new world, especially on internet where the majority of people and things posted are english. And there's also the language barrier which can be a real issue when travelling.

It would be a really big step forward if school emphasized the learning of english.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Kennedjiro » 06 juin 2016, 12:46

Almar a écrit :They don't realize the amount of possibilities given when speaking english. I believe It's like accessing a whole new world, especially on internet where the majority of people and things posted are english. And there's also the language barrier which can be a real issue when travelling

At that point, learning english doesn't give access to a new world anymore. It's not learning it that makes your world smaller. :?
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Miltøn » 06 juin 2016, 13:51

Almar a écrit :
Da Rouf a écrit :Well, don't forget that when graduating from elementary school, most French pupils don't even speak and write their own langage properly.

I laughed :mrgreen:


I did not… :| Thanks Mr. Bourdieu…
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 06 juin 2016, 17:24

Kennedjiro a écrit :
Almar a écrit :They don't realize the amount of possibilities given when speaking english. I believe It's like accessing a whole new world, especially on internet where the majority of people and things posted are english. And there's also the language barrier which can be a real issue when travelling

At that point, learning english doesn't give access to a new world anymore. It's not learning it that makes your world smaller. :?


For once, I totally agree.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Elmut » 07 juin 2016, 21:11

Well, there's an other issue that none of you has spoken about yet... what about the teachers ? I mean, in elementary school, most of them (at least, most of the teachers i had when i was a kid) don't have the degree to properly teach english to children. (and when i say 'properly', i mean something more interesting than 'head, shoulders, knees and toes'...)
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 07 juin 2016, 22:01

Oh yes! The famous "I haven't been trained to do this." "I can't even speak English myself.".
Back in CM2 I had a real Englishwoman who taught us basic words and sentences... But I guess it was just a fortunate turn of events as she was living nearby.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar LeDévéo » 10 juin 2016, 14:43

Da Rouf a écrit :Back in CM2 I had a real Englishwoman who taught us basic words and sentences... But I guess it was just a fortunate turn of events as she was living nearby.


Lol yes it was. In my good old countryside I was taught by a 50yo woman who was born in the area, married in the area and she's still probably planning to live the rest of her life in the area. Given the fact that it was in the South-West, I'll just let you imagine her accent :mrgreen:

But I don't really think that's a big deal. Elementary school wears really good its name : it's made to teach children the very basics of life, and it would be kinda stupid to expect perfect english grammar from a 9yo.
The sad thing is that, from there, it never gets more serious. As others already pointed out, no one gives a single duck about english until after highschool. And even now, if you had the teacher I have in Fermat...
Better be scrolling 9GAG than listening to her :(
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Elmut » 12 juin 2016, 19:47

Yet, I truelly believe we are only peeping through the keyhole... I mean, elementary school is f****d up... Today, kids in mid-school are unable to read the hour on a clock, or to understand basic rules of grammar (one of my friend, who's an english teacher, told me the other day that there is a student in 6eme who believes that the word "the" in "the cat" and in "the table" are different... because a cat ain't a table !), or to look for a word in a dictionnary...

Let's screw all this shit and home school our kids.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Miltøn » 12 juin 2016, 19:49

You should say “average kids”. Some parents are able to help their own children, and some schools (but not few) are not already “f***ed up” (yet).
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Elmut » 12 juin 2016, 20:07

What you say is but very true... The fact is, I wanted to sound quite sarcastic and dramatic x) ('cuz it's Sunday night. And Sunday is Drama Day.)
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 12 juin 2016, 22:27

No but Elmut does have a point. The overall level is just abysmal.
It's no use considering the happy few who can access to help, or are being monitored by their parents. To assess the success of the French system you should look at the average pupil.
I do however believe that, although the general level is dropping, it is not inherently a problem with the way English is taught. The average student is just getting dumber (source: testimonies)... Where as the "smart" student is not "smarting up", but maintaining their level which means a relative progress. Especially in English where, with the growing American culture import, and the new generation of tv-show teenagers, more French pupils stand out by their level in English.

tl;dr: The better ones are improving, but overall the average student is dropping.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar thuiop » 13 juin 2016, 06:32

The question should be : why is the average student dropping, while he is more and more exposed to English, through the internet for example?
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Almar » 13 juin 2016, 08:57

thuiop a écrit :The question should be : why is the average student dropping, while he is more and more exposed to English, through the internet for example?

Because the average student waste his entire time on social networks/tv reality. Thus, they're not only dropping in English, but also in the other subjects. And then you have a vicious circle : they are dropping in all subjects, it's depressing and they think they cannot do anything, so they stop working completely and they drop even more
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 13 juin 2016, 11:03

Aaaaand society and teaching have become more self indulgent, and protective.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Miltøn » 13 juin 2016, 11:22

Aren't most of the functionalities on the Internet written in English? Most of the interesting posts you see on Facebook or Twitter are shared throughout the web, with no constraint of borders or language, as they are shared in Esperanto English. Most of the apps, including videogames on phones, are only in English. Most of the mainstream series are in English. Some of the best English-speakers I know learned English just in order to read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows a few months before its translation was released in French.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar LeDévéo » 13 juin 2016, 16:48

Milton a écrit :Some of the best English-speakers I know learned English just in order to read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows a few months before its translation was released in French.


Yah but thing is, those in this case are in extreme minority. While it's true that nearly everyone watches series in english, among them, how many actually watch these series without reading subtitles?
I don't think it's really a necessary cause, but "geeks" in my opinion are in general pretty ok with english, since, as you said, most of the interesting content for us are entirely in english,
(
Spoiler :

ONLINE GAMES
)
But the average teenager ( the "casual" you'd say :mrgreen: ) doesn't give a damn about this, and just watches french youtubers and doesn't really care about english at all.

So remember kids, if you wanna get good at english, PLAY LOL
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 13 juin 2016, 17:13

LeDévéo a écrit :
(
Spoiler :

ONLINE GAMES
)


Cyka blyat.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Miltøn » 13 juin 2016, 18:29

LeDévéo a écrit :PLAY LOL

Fail your exams.

Don’t you think you can learn English watching series with English subtitles?
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar xammax » 13 juin 2016, 18:46

Da Rouf a écrit :
LeDévéo a écrit :
(
Spoiler :

ONLINE GAMES
)


Cyka blyat.



I totally agree :lol:
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 13 juin 2016, 21:01

I totally got my oral comprehension skills from Game of Thrones, to be fair.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Almar » 13 juin 2016, 22:00

Da Rouf a écrit :I totally got my oral comprehension skills from Game of Thrones, to be fair.


My english skills are from Minecraft, I'm ashamed...
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 13 juin 2016, 22:26

"Hello, I can describe any cube in the world, what's your move?"
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Almar » 14 juin 2016, 10:08

Da Rouf a écrit :"Hello, I can describe any cube in the world, what's your move?"

Are you telling me that Game of Throne's vocabulary is better ? :wink:
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 14 juin 2016, 10:20

Yes.

(screw rhetorical questions xD)
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Miltøn » 14 juin 2016, 18:46

Sure you'll have to open your Webster to fully enjoy Martin's writing skills ... :P
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 14 juin 2016, 19:24

His writing is... flat, to me at least.
It has no sense of emphasis, of rythm, it is a long flow of words, meandering around, which would describe a dish of tuna or a violent beheading in the same fashion, without you even noticing something happened.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Miltøn » 14 juin 2016, 21:23

I have heard he wanted to use a “simple” language in order to be readable by anybody …
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Almar » 15 juin 2016, 11:34

He might just have copy/pasted something on the Internet without understanding what it meant
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 15 juin 2016, 15:50

PLOT TWIST: GRRM doesn't even speak English and is just a very well coded random text generating cyborg.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar thuiop » 15 juin 2016, 16:06

Da Rouf a écrit :PLOT TWIST: GRRM doesn't even speak English and is just a very well coded random text generating cyborg.

SECOND PLOT TWIST : GRRM has never existed, he's just an hologram made by the Illuminati.
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Almar » 15 juin 2016, 16:12

Plot twist : At first i didn't know who was GRRM and I thought Da rouf was being serious and talking about an algorithm. So I search for GRRM on google. Turns out I'm just stupid
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Miltøn » 15 juin 2016, 17:16

I first read “GRAM” and did not understand why he was talking about determinants …
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Re: French education and foreign languages

Messagepar Dⓐ Яøʊƭ » 15 juin 2016, 17:24

Jesus-Christ, people...

thuiop a écrit :
Da Rouf a écrit :PLOT TWIST: GRRM doesn't even speak English and is just a very well coded random text generating cyborg.

SECOND PLOT TWIST : GRRM has never existed, he's just an hologram made by the Illuminati.


Cf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Hpix8O9Qs
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